The issue of choice

[Dakini]

Please bear with me as I waffle

But the matter of choice has been on my mind this morning (yes, I was pondering my feminist thoughts whilst making scrambled eggs, barefoot, braless and in the kitchen :wink: ) But I was having a conversation with a friend over the weekend and I was talking about vagivism and she claimed that she didn't care what women chose to do with pregnancy/birth/breastfeeding she just supported their right to choose... now that seems fair enough... but the thing that occurred to me this morning - as I have been thinking about that comment since the weekend - is that I feel that here in Australia, what is presented to women as choice are mostly avenues that numb them... I think that we have thinly veiled attempts the convince women that they have real *choice*.. but those choices don't come in the form of liberation for women rather to pacify them... rather than having women freed from the constraints of patriachial thinking they are pidgeonholed even further by *modern choices*... choices which do not celebrate and liberate them as women, rather that veiw anything that deviates from malesness as an aberration... the greatest choice that women have in obstetrics in Australia is a choce of painkillers.... so rather than provide women with the right support to empower them during such a pivotal time in their lives with a demedicalised pregancy and a midwifery led birth support.. they are fed full of fear about the pathlogical nature of their bodies and birth, and are drugged into submission at a time when they are at their peak in terms of personal power... long live the patriachy!!!!

I am all for supporting women's right to choose.. as long as what women are able to choose from is *legitimate* choice and not more oppressive patriachial bullshit under the guise of choice.

Ok.. so if you have made it this far through my waffle... mwah to you

[The Morrigan]

Have I told you lately, that I love you? la la la la la doo doo doo

Shit, yeah! Sing it sister! Like I always say if you don't know all your options, you don't have any. The language of choice shits me to tears. It's been hijacked from feminism and has come to mean diddly squat. Are we really choosing ff if we don't know what potential risks are involved? Are we really choosing elective caesarean when we have no clue what potential exists for disaster? No we're bloody well not! And yet when you talk about expanding women's choices through information provision, you're "scaremongering" or somehow trying to remove their right to choose. WTF is that about??? By knowing more I will be unable to choose??? I think it's really "By knowing more I will feel like a git for doing dumb stuff but rather than putting the blame where it lies with my surgeon/doctor/MCHN/local ff rep/my own gullibility, I will shout at the messinger for bringing up complex emotions in me." I could rant all bloody day about this one! :evil: Sheeple shit me.

[~*heket*~]

Indeedy! :roll:

[homebirthmum]

Totally yep. With you babe.
Actually there is a great book I'm reading more about motherhood itself, by Anne Manne.... it discusses lots of things that feminism has a so called answer too, like pro-choice, pro-work etc. but asks the question what is this actually doing for women, and for children. I imagine she would have some similar thoughts on birthing.
Bloody hell wouldn't you love to slap some people (virtually of course). : :
Did you ever see that 60 minutes story with tracey curo singing the praises of her elective caesar as 'her choice' and a womans right and all that bullshit. She needs a slap too.
In the back of 'Birth Reborn' Sheila Kitzinger puts it really well.... in terms of how what we choose here today effects women all over the world. Fact is, some people are just thinking of themselves in their own little fear induced state. Oops did I say that.
Oh dear, I'm getting very nasty.
Rach

[Ceridwen]

I am so fucking sick of women saying: "You might like natural birth but it's all about choice and I choose epidural/c sec/induction/having my baby extracted through my nasal cavity with a straw"... :evil:

That is not choice. That is opting out of birth. And they're doing it because the patriarchy that governs birth tells them it's what they should be doing, it's ok to do it, it's not harmful, it's their power to choose.

What a load of thinly veiled shit designed to steal the one true power women have (birth), twist it, defile it, and make it controllable by men.

As you can see, I firmly agree with you.

The thing that angers me the most, though?

The women who deliberately buy into it. Some of us are genuinely innocent and learn (the hard way) our other real choices and options. But some are lazy, or selfish, or eager to please male dominated society, to the detriment of themselves, their birth, and most importantly of all, their babes.

That makes me angry beyond belief.

And we're the freaks for wanting to simply birth as our bodies are designed to?! :

[The Morrigan]

Oh Goddess I'm in love!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are SUCH a JBer!!!!!


Felicity for Pope!!!!! Felicity for President!!!! Felicity as Head of the Internationl Monetary Fund!!!!!!

[Dakini]

... sigh.... yep... I feel your pain... I know you have been taking a beating on a mainstream forum.. I was reading it with disgust today. I would like to thank you Felicity for the bravery to respond in the face of such attacks.. I am simply not able to go there and read the posts, singing the praises of c/sections and drugs... it ramps up my ptsd and i want to run down the street screaming about the butchers... hugs to you..

[Ceridwen]

Yeah, I had a cry, had some Rescue Remedy, and got over it, Artemis.

If anything, it affirms my life choices and beliefs. There's a lot of work to be done out there in epidural land. :roll:

Those women are living proof that obstetric intervention breeds angry, damaged people. :P

[homebirthmum]

OK and I was worried I was getting a bit too forceful! Go Felicity!
It really pisses me off to, especially when people say 'oh aren't you brave' to have your babies at home.... actually I think I'm very well imformed, intelligent, and trust my body. It's sad that so many people are so deluded. Ah yes, mainstream land.... I copped a beating or two there long ago, and have since bowed out. Felicity, you go girl if it's not too damaging to you.
RP

[Ilithyia]

I gave a lecture on "False choice: the limits to rights discourse" at monash uni this year. I thought I'd share some of that with you JBers. The limits of choice was one aspect of a general feminist critique of reproductive liberty lecture, but the general ideas regarding choice remain relevant to discussions about childbirth options.

***
how can there be anything wrong with “choice”?
According to feminists who oppose the concept of reproductive liberty: Individual choice disguises collective problems and abuses.

This issue of individualism is one which many feminists come into conflict over.
For liberal feminists, who advocate reproductive liberty, the focus of all discussions is the individual woman and her right to choose.
For radical and ecofeminists, who oppose reproductive liberty, the focus of all discussion is: all women as a group, and their right to determine the conditions of their lives.

The major difference between the two of these stances is that the latter recognises that feminism is not really “all about choice”, rather it’s all about “control”.
What feminists really want is for women to have control over their lives, and their bodies.
So it is not merely about being allowed or enabled to choose, it’s about determining what is included in the list of options from which we are choosing.
And currently it is quite a struggle to get some of those options onto the list, for example: refusing to become a mother without social stigma, accepting infertility without undergoing medical treatment, deciding to have a natural birth minus any obstetric check-ups or foetal monitoring, to name a few.

Another important problem with the idea of choice is that when we’re talking about reproductive liberty we are talking about an issue that has special significance to women:
“The assumption that any reproductive means should be a constitutionally protected procreative liberty ignores the real means used to bring about the desired end. Procreative liberty is not an abstract end, separate from an evaluation of the means. The central fact is that women’s bodies are the reproductive means to others’ reproductive goals.” (Raymond, 1995, p.79).

If we grant that there is such a thing as reproductive liberty and a couple have a right to have a child but are unable to do so without assistance we also grant that they have a right to use the bodies of women to obtain a child.
For example: a couple of whom neither partner has a uterus, or working uterus, should have the right to use the uterus of someone who does.
The same goes for eggs.
This is a very big ask of women, with consequences.

It’s also important to question whether we’re really talking about choice? As feminists such as Robin Morgan, Barbara Katz Rothman and Melinda Tankard Reist ask::
“Who defines the choices among which we choose?” (Robin Morgan Rowland, 1992, p.279)

“As “choices” become available, they all too rapidly become compulsions to “choose” the socially endorsed alternative.” (Ruth Hubbard in Rothman, 1984, p.27)

“What does so-called “freedom of choice” mean in a society where choices have become so prescribed, where there are fewer and fewer opportunities to opt out, where it is becoming harder to say “No” to certain technologies and the expectations which automatically flow from their application?” (Tankard Reist, 2006, p.7)

When it comes to reproductive liberty and “choices” about having children, the only real choice is to choose to have a child that is genetically related to you, or your partner, or both of you.
Interestingly, the most socially acceptable, or socially advocated choice is to choose that which is made possible by biotechnology: a genetically related child.
As opposed to meeting your nurturing desires via adoption, foster parenting, having animal companions, or working in a caring profession such as teaching or childcare.